Agree to Disagree: Southern Baptists want gay marriage to go the way of Roe v. Wade | Opinion
Welcome back to Agree to Disagree, in which I discuss topics with people on different sides of the political spectrum. This time around, I spoke with Rev. Hershael York, dean of the school of theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville. York, who is pastor emeritus at Buck Run Baptist Church in Frankfort, had just returned from the Southern Baptist Convention in Dallas, Texas, where the convention representing 47,000 churches voted to try to overturn the Supreme Court’s Obergefell decision, which legalized gay marriage. Our phone conversation from June 13, 2025 has been edited for space and clarity.
Linda Blackford: How was the conference?
Hershael York: It was good. I thought the SBC this year was good— it was peaceful and there wasn’t a lot of drama. You know the SBC is the largest town hall meeting in America where any member of the body can get up and get to a microphone and say something.
LB: Obviously there was some news made and my question is: of all the issues facing the world right now, why does the SBC feel that overturning gay marriage should be a top priority?
HY: Well, there’s no question where we are on that issue, and you know we’re no different now than we’ve ever been. We really do see that, as the resolution said, as a creation order issue and we think it’s especially important that people who claim to be Christians and believe the Bible acknowledge the clarity of the scriptures on that issue.
We are certainly aware that the culture atlarge does not agree with us on that and our position on it is really more about what we as Bible-believing Christians see in the scripture and how we read the Bible. And because we’re the largest non-Catholic Christian denomination in the United States, we just want to be clear on that issue.
LB: What exactly does Jesus say?
HY: In Matthew 19, when they ask Jesus about divorce, he responds by going back to the beginning and arguing creation order. He says in the beginning God created them male and female, that the two should be one flesh and so in that statement, Jesus limits the purpose of marriage, who’s in the marriage, how many are in the marriage, and the gender of those in the marriage. It’s all right there in Matthew 19.
LB: So why are you not making a resolution to try to overturn the laws on divorce between men and women then?
HY: Well, I would just simply say there’s no question on what we believe about that. Divorce, too, is completely outside of God’s design. I mean there are exceptions in the scripture there are exceptions given to divorce, but in general, Jesus says that marriage should be between a man and woman for life, and we’re clearly on record for that. But again this (gay marriage) is an innovation in our culture since Obergefell, and we do believe that there is an opportunity here to go on the record and say we think it should be overturned.
LB: The last time you and I talked it was about the sexual abuse scandal within the Southern Baptist Convention. Do you feel like that has been dealt with adequately that you can just move on and say ‘OK we’ve cleaned up our house and now we’re gonna clean up everybody else’s?’
HY: But it’s not either/or. I mean, part of Protestantism is an emphasis on always reforming so I don’t think we will ever say ‘oh we’ve cleaned up our house’ on any given issue. We believe in being vigilant all the time. And that would be true with sexual abuse, with our view of divorce and marriage and homosexuality, and all those things. It’s a constant effort to be faithful to the scripture on all of those things.
LB: So would you all be satisfied if the Supreme Court was to return the issue of gay marriage to the states?
HY: Yes, it would enable us to make the case state by state. You know in Kentucky, it (a gay marriage ban) overwhelmingly passed, but then was ruled unconstitutional, so we would love to be able to make that case stay by state.
LB: You know, obviously, mainline religious membership is either going down or flatlining, and that’s been happening for a long time. I think one of the reasons for young people to avoid church is the question of why there’s so much emphasis on judgment and hatred rather than love, and I guess that would be my question too. Why do you care? How does gay marriage hurt you? How does it hurt the SBC what other people do in committed relationships?
HY: We really do believe that God’s design is best. We believe that the creator who created us knows what is best for us. It’s not that something necessarily hurts us, but we’re just going to stand for what we believe. You know, we’re not willing to say ‘oh yeah, we know the Bible says that, but we know better.’ We do think that is what liberal Christianity usually does — that they are more than willing to edit the Bible and even the words of Jesus and discount what it says. We’re just not willing to do that. We really do believe that the best thing for human flourishing is to follow the design revealed in scripture.
LB: Maybe maybe liberal Christians have their message and you’re taking another side and they contradict each other. But who’s to say who’s right except that your way is hurting people?
HY: Well, I would argue that it’s not hurting people at all. In fact, you know, I think I would dispute your characterization about the decline of denominations. There’s no question that there’s been an overall decline in the United States, but worldwide Christianity is really growing, especially in Africa and Asia. I would argue that liberal Christianity has been really the death of Christianity in the United States.
At the end of the day either you put yourself above the text or you put the text over you. This is what conservative Christians believe — we say we’re under the text. Jesus is really clear about homosexuality and so we’re just reflecting what the scripture says and we’re saying we believe that this is God’s design. We’re not out to hurt people, but we are out to say the truth and I would just say the truth ultimately is always for our good.”
LB: I mean, you’re basically denying the existence of 10 % or more of our population and I guess that’s where people have a really hard time. I mean you’re denying the humanity of a huge number of people in our society, our friends and our family, and that is the point that I don’t understand.
HY: Well, I would say what I’m denying is that all desires are good just because we have them.
LB: That’s fine except that the desires of men who have affairs and prey on young people and to want divorces seem to be just OK and accepted in our society. It seems extremely hypocritical.
HY: I have no idea why you’re saying that because I would say all of that is awful. It’s against God. I don’t think we should accept any of those things. I mean, I really don’t know anybody who accepts men preying on women. I know it happens, but it’s a sin against God and against women.
LB: I’m not going to pick on your denomination, but the history of religion is one long cover-up of of men preying on women and children so ...
HY: Were the problems of Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein because of religion?No, it’s humanity, broken, fallen, sinful humanity. And I’m not defending anyone who in any way enables or covers up for predatory behavior. I’m just saying it’s not a problem that is specific to religion.
LB: Well, it is a problem that has been specific to religion because the hierarchy of churches has allowed that kind of cover-up. I guess I’m just trying to understand so I can explain why it’s not the height of hypocrisy to say that we’re going to just cover up sexual abuse, but go after gay marriage.
We don’t have to belabor this to death but what if instead of saying our one of our big resolutions this year is to go after gay marriage, what if the Southern Baptist Convention said we’re gonna go after child poverty. What would that look like?
HY: First of all, I would just remind you I don’t think it’s an either/or. They could do both and in the Southern Baptist Convention, they do. Our record on mercy ministries and disaster relief is unparalleled by any denomination in this country.
LB: I’m just wondering like why is gay marriage more important than everything else?
HY: Well again, it’s not like there’s no push back on child poverty, we spend millions on that. But right now there’s a cultural moment where we have an opportunity to speak out on something that we realize the culture is accepting, something that we think the Bible says is wrong.
LB: So as someone who watched how these things go, could you predict how you think this will all play out?
HY: I have no way of predicting what the Supreme Court will do, and I don’t know that I see the will on the Supreme Court to overturn Obergefell. But for the Southern Baptists, I’ll predict we’re gonna continue saying what we’ve always said. And I don’t see us changing on that. I think we’re going to continue to speak with what we consider a biblical prophetic voice to say we know we’re different than the culture here but we think this is what the word of God says, and we’re going to stand with it.
LB: This reminds of another question: How do you explain the affinity that so many Southern Baptists have for Donald Trump when he obviously violates so many of these biblical tenets?
HY: I can only say that he allows conservative voices to be heard and that he has surrounded himself with people who are sympathetic to the views held by Southern Baptists. There are a lot Southern Baptists who never voted for him. We might be glad for some things that he does or allows, but I don’t think anybody is confused about who he is.
LB: Thank you so much for your time.
This story was originally published June 17, 2025 at 6:00 AM.
